Best Behaviour

Creativity and Learning Design

• Season 3 • Episode 2

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On this episode of Best Behaviour, we sit down with Kylie Burns to explore all things creativity and learning design — from how we harness it, to why it matters more than ever in today’s world.

We’re also joined by some very special guests who bring their fresh eyes and innate creativity to some of the trickiest organisational challenges. From origami cows to camping, their ideas might just surprise you.

Send us a message.

Best Behaviour podcast is recorded on Wurundjeri land, Interchange acknowledges that this always was, and always will be Aboriginal land.

For more information about Interchange and the work that we do, check out our website, or connect with us on LinkedIn, or instagram.

Best Behaviour S3Ep2 Creativity and Learning Design

[00:00:00] Gabrielle Harris: Hello and welcome back to Best Behaviour. I'm really excited about this episode Today. We're on creativity and learning design, and I'm joined here today by Kylie Burns, who is a real subject matter expert in this space. Uh, Kylie's been working through her PhD on. A design mindset process, which is leveraging Carol Dweck's fixed and growth mindset work.

Um, and I'm really looking forward to digging in and exploring that I. Kylie's also, uh, works as a lecturer at Swinburne University in communication design. And for the past three months, we've had the great honour and privilege of having Kylie be here at Interchange, helping us with all of our design needs and thinking about what is that brand representation?

How do we start thinking about using. Uh, the design mindset process in our own work. So welcome, Kylie. Thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:04] Kylie Burns: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very, um, very excited and a little nervous, so to be honest, 

[00:01:09] Gabrielle Harris: you'll be fine. Just be the wonderful, glowing self that you are.

We've also got a couple of special guests coming to join us, are Chloe, Julian, and Finn. Because one of the things that Kylie and I will be exploring is how we start with an abundance of creativity, which erodes over time. And so our 10-year-old experts are coming in to share their thoughts and insights about how to turn tricky problems into creative solutions.

So I guess before we get stuck in, what I'm really interested to understand is what is it that has made you so passionate and enthusiastic about this whole concept of thinking about design mindset process? 

[00:01:54] Kylie Burns: The process that I've developed is to help learners to navigate barriers with more ease. The current pedagogy doesn't allow.

That individual analysis and reflection to happen. And I felt that, that there was a, a rather large gap. Also, myself being a neurodivergent learner, this was a huge gap for me through primary school and high school, uh, where the passive learning aspect of being. Told what I need to learn instead of actually putting it into a creative practice is completely missing.

[00:02:41] Gabrielle Harris: And I know we both share that passion for neurodivergent learning. Um, myself was diagnosed with dyslexia quite late in that education process, and whilst I now actually see it as perhaps. One of my strongest assets because I'm able to spot patterns and see things in ways that perhaps, um, neurotypical, uh, people can't.

Yeah, I think it has such a, uh, possibility to be enhanced in all forms of neurodiversity when we think about it from that space of creativity and, and design. Um, and so I'm really excited today to learn more about. What you've already uncovered and how that might show up as a way of supporting organizations as they move through change, which is something that every organization grapples with daily.

So tell me a little bit about creative problem solving, and I guess those origins of design thinking principles. 

[00:03:36] Kylie Burns: So the principles include welcoming, diverse viewpoints, so being really, really open to suggestions, even if they're completely wacko, they're usually the best ones too. Um, promoting exploration, appreciating experimentation.

This is a, a key component, and this is where I see in schools that there's a lot of apprehension and fear behind. Experimentation, like actually doing the do. Like, what if I stuff this up? What if things go wrong? 

[00:04:12] Gabrielle Harris: Mm-hmm. So 

[00:04:13] Kylie Burns: it's being open to allowing that experimenting to actually unfold and present the data so you can analyse it and keep moving through.

So I guess in a, in a sense is actually getting rid of that control factor and nurturing curiosity would be another huge component. And I think too, it's quietening down that internal. Monologue that you have to then deeply listen to the people around you. So these elements collectively facilitate the development of innovative solutions.

But then you've got the creative problem solving process, um, which is similar to design thinking and is a systematic approach of crafting innovative solutions that involves distinguishing between divergent thinking, so you're expanding on your thinking. That also includes taking your past knowledge into that, but then also expanding on that knowledge and then your.

Taking that knowledge and then distilling down so you're convergently thinking, um, where you're assessing those ideas to then implement or test. 

[00:05:27] Gabrielle Harris: So one of the things that stands out to me when you talk about, I guess, the design thinking process is the internal. Monologue that's playing out and having built an organization that is based around creative problem solving.

What I notice when we go into organizations is almost a fear of the word. Yeah. So in school we do art class and either we're somehow this amazing drawer or painter. Or we are not, which is the vast majority of what children are told. And so we carry that through life. And then as soon as you start to introduce this concept of, of creativity in a workplace, all of this fear sets in around.

Our own perceptions about whether we were good or not good at art, which is intrinsically linked to the word creativity. And I'm curious about what you've uncovered in your research and your work about this. I guess societal belief set around what creativity actually is. 

[00:06:34] Kylie Burns: Creativity is a problem solving method.

So you can be creative in maths, you can be creative in science, you can be creative in English. What I'm finding is that creativity is very much linked to the arts, where really it's just that form that that person has is using to be creative. It's it's separate, so you can still be creative in maths, for example.

I'm gonna dive into an anecdote regarding how my teacher in grade three taught me math. And maths and made do not go well together. We've just not partnered. And my grade three teacher, Mr. Taylor, if you're listening to this, thank you so much for this gold. But what he did was he actually saw me. As a learner and went, hang on a minute, this kid's different.

And he designed a classroom environment that was a community. So if we stood up straight in class and we did our work, you know, well and persisted and had grief and all that sort of stuff, on Monday to to Thursday, we would actually win play money. And on a Friday, the classroom was set up as a community.

So there was a newspaper, there was a news agent, which was the store room cupboard. There was, you know, all sorts of stuff. There was a police station, there was a courthouse. So we learned about social structures and Mr. Mr. T, Mr. Taylor put me in charge of the news agency where I had to do stock take.

Every week and I would sell pens and paper and everything that I learned through that practical application of maths stuck. 

[00:08:27] Gabrielle Harris: Mm. It makes me think of my own grade five and six, um, maths teacher. I don't think he would get away with it now, but my goodness, this guy was amazing. So recognize that myself and, and a couple of other of the students really struggled with the concepts and so he turned maths into acrobats.

So you would do your equations by. Forming human pyramids or one child standing on top of the other child. And then in order to demonstrate, now, it did stick with me at the time, but I can't really quite understand the concept of it now that I'm explaining it to you. But you take one child and then you flip them over and they become the bottom part of the fraction.

Remember that thing where like the top number became the bottom number? Yeah. That's all that about. But anyway, I remember

I got it at the time, and it was only because of him finding creative methods to be able to help us to understand it and also use our whole body in the experience of learning as opposed to it being this. Sitting at a desk and rote learning, being told exactly how something needed to be done in a particular way by bringing physicality to it.

I think it is such an important part of, of creativity and, um, curious about whether or not you've got some similar experiences or examples Absolutely. Of how whole physical movement component absolutely. Becomes part of creation. Absolutely. You've gotta 

[00:09:50] Kylie Burns: get out of, um, you know, we are so bound by computers and phones, and.

And we're living intensively in our heads, and we need to get out of that space. So you have to practically apply what you're doing. We've been doing it here at Interchange. It's been fantastic just to unpack this Wonderful. Company's values and then how to practically apply that across all of your, um, your channels that you're using has been fantastic.

But we've done that using sprints, pin up sessions, feedback sessions, all sorts of wonderful activities. To bring us out of that brain space to practically apply. And it is, you need your whole body. You need to move. 

[00:10:43] Gabrielle Harris: Yeah. It's a physicality to creativity. There is. Now tell me the, the research that you are doing and, uh, I guess the building of Carol Dowe quite, quite, uh, it's quite famous.

Her female. 

[00:10:56] Kylie Burns: Oh, she's a, she's like. I wanna have dinner with you, Carol. Now the primary question investigates how the integrated components of the design mindset process empowers students to cultivate a curious mindset. Curiosity is I. Really the backbone for problem solving. Yeah. If you're not curious, you are not going to ask questions.

So really fostering that in education, I think is key. Um, the study aims to evaluate the design mindset process. So the design mindset process that I've built, um, over the past five years. Is two components. There's a framework that actually scaffolds onto existing pedagogy. That is a a learning design tool.

And the other is the design mindset method, which is a intervention tool for students to actually track how they learn. So the individual student actually understands. 'cause that's the thing that was missing in my own education, is I'm sitting here in this classroom trying to keep up with everybody else.

The system's not working for me at all because I'm kinetic in my learning. I need to move. But I never knew how I, how I learnt what I did for my master's study. I actually interviewed designers up the east coast of Australia and asked them how they failed. And then mapped it, um, against Carol Dweck's growth and fixed mindset, as well as Kowalski's, um, creative mindset.

So there was three, and when I actually mapped it out, the data actually showed that we were missing two um, mindsets, which was reflect and accept. Need to accept that there's barriers and you need to reflect on what those barriers are, especially if you are in those fixed mindset states. And what it does, it enables, enables you to actually map how you learn.

Carol Dweck came up with wonderful mindset characteristics. So for a fixed mindset, the characteristics is I don't want to, I don't wanna face obstacles, I don't wanna listen to, um, criticism and I don't want to hear about other people's successes, for example. Yeah. That then allows the student to go, oh, I'm gonna fix mindset state while I'm actually working through this barrier, and they can actually identify which one they're in.

Which then enables them to go, oh, I can accept that, and now I'm gonna reflect on how I'm going to change that mindset so I can continue through that learning growth. 

[00:13:47] Gabrielle Harris: What's interesting for me when I listen to you explain that is this piece around the addition of reflect and accept. And the reason I find that interesting is because in my own learning journey.

And my focus area of being in change, change equals loss. It equals grief of some form. Mm. And I, I associate with grief, uh, the grief cycle when you start talking about reflection and accept, and, uh, we don't often. Think about the importance of reflection and we, we don't often think about what is the process of accepting something to be able to recognize the step that we've taken and what we've left behind as a result of that step that we've taken in order to keep moving forward.

And it's just this sometimes. It feels to people like a constant state of change because there is no reflection of what's been left and no acceptance of what could come. And so adding those two components to that design thinking process means I think that you're allowing people the space, the time, and the energy to understand what has been lost as a result of the change that they've made.

[00:15:09] Kylie Burns: But also what's been gained in every failure is gold. There is a piece of gold, you've just gotta sit in the sting for a little while, 'cause it does hurt. Once you do find that piece of gold, within that information, it'll actually show you pathways forward, which is fantastic, but it's having the bravery and the curiosity as well to actually unpack what's not working, why it needs to change.

Mm-hmm. Accepting that, yeah, there's parts that you're gonna have to leave and you're gonna have to set aside that aren't working. That's fine. 

[00:15:49] Gabrielle Harris: Which is really hard for people to do really hard for. It's the leaving stuff behind whether it's working for you or not. Yeah. It's very hard for people to let it go.

[00:15:57] Kylie Burns: As a designer, I've had to let go of so many designs. I have a file that. Is it, I might use one day file. Um, so it's work that I've, I've done, it's completed, but it hasn't been accepted by the, the client. So I put it in this file and I thought I might get back to it one day. I've only ever done it once in my 38 year career, have I gone back to that file?

So it's about allowing things to die because the birth that's gonna happen out of that. It's gonna be incredible. 

[00:16:33] Gabrielle Harris: Incredible. Now let's talk about this direct correlation to fixed and growth mindset is a perception that we hear daily when we're working with clients. Around. I am creative or I'm not creative.

I am not a creative person. You've touched on it a bit already with saying creativity can show up in so many different forms in so many different ways, but the traditional ways of learning across the schooling system really suppress that experience for people. Mm-hmm. So utilizing both your own research and your own experience, what are the ways that you can help people to get past that narrative?

[00:17:15] Kylie Burns: In the classroom, I create situations that are actually quite uncomfortable for my students. First class, they'll walk in because I'm dyslexic. I read body language. It's, it's a superpower. And the students walk in, they, they sit down, their arms are crossed, they're completely closed. They don't know anybody.

They don't feel safe. So I do ridiculous icebreakers. What I do is I get them to stand up, close their eyes, spin around in a circle, and then open them. And the first person they land eyes on, they have a four minute conversation just about who they are. Yeah, but this is on rinse and repeat until everybody has met.

And it's amazing to see people unfold their arms open, their stance. When I've done it with some groups, community groups have formed very, very quickly, and then those community groups that have formed in those conversations end up being work tables. 

[00:18:24] Gabrielle Harris: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:25] Kylie Burns: You know, and it's something that's done really, really quickly.

It makes them incredibly uncomfortable 'cause they're in the spotlight. People don't like being in the spotlight either. 

[00:18:35] Gabrielle Harris: We actually had, um, a conversation about this recently, you and I over lunch about just a university system and there is a separation of engagement. Yeah, people are showing up to classes having never met each other before, and they could be five years into their university, um, experience that power of engagement is so important for, for learning, for growth, for change, and I.

Yet we try to create systems which avoid engagement. Why is that? 

[00:19:07] Kylie Burns: I have no idea. I don't understand All. What I can see is the problems that it, it's creating then you are not actually building up communities. When I was doing my masters back in 2005, my first master's, there was an actual master's room that we could go and study in after.

Our classes at any, at any stage, it was, you know, open to us and that actually gave us a community outside of the classroom. 

[00:19:39] Gabrielle Harris: Mm. 

[00:19:39] Kylie Burns: There's not enough of that either. And I'm not talking about just playing chess or any of those sorts of things. It's about actually getting these young adults together, and I think that that needs to be.

Seriously explored. 

[00:19:54] Gabrielle Harris: Mm. And applying that to a, uh, a corporate setting or an organizational setting. It's interesting that even those simple concepts of, I dunno, for want of a better term, club rooms or, uh, social engagements has, has dropped off a lot. It, it really is dissipating and the value of it. I think is largely misunderstood.

We have conversations about, um, hybrid working, which is about trying to get people either in some sort of 50 50 routine. It's, it's seemingly, the argument keeps going back to traditional ways of thinking about how you. Track staff or how those staff are not committed 'cause they don't wanna show up. But I, I think actually what's happening is people are no longer feeling comfortable or capable of engaging because it's been removed from the system for such a long period of time that it's become alien.

Yeah. And that alien nature is reducing our creativity and capacity to innovate. So Kylie, we've been talking a lot about creativity, so we thought it'd be fun to flip this on its head a little rather than two old shook sitting around talking about it. I thought we could invite in some of the younger people that have not yet been exposed to some of the weird and wacky ways that we've been talking about in terms of societal expectations and norms.

We have three highly experienced and innovative people joining us. I'd like to introduce you to Chloe, Julian and Finn. Chloe, say hello to everybody. 

[00:21:44] Chloe: Hi, 

[00:21:46] Gabrielle Harris: this is Julian slash Buggy. Hello and Finn. 

[00:21:51] Finn: So Finn slash buggy and 

[00:21:55] Gabrielle Harris: Chloe. The absolute genius of the group. Tell us about your exceptional experience and ideas.

[00:22:06] Chloe: Um, at home I like painting and doing lots of arts and craft. 

And what's the thing that you love about being creative, Finn? 

[00:22:15] Finn: It's like being creative is good 'cause you don't, it's not boring or anything. 

[00:22:20] Gabrielle Harris: Gives you energy. Yeah. And Julian slash buggy, what's your favorite thing about creative expression?

[00:22:25] Julian: Being creative is a wonderful thing that you can experience a lot of new developing ideas. 

[00:22:36] Gabrielle Harris: Wow. Can't wait to have a chat with the three of you today and hear about all of your ideas, innovations, and ways of thinking and working. Alright. Let me tell you about what we do. So it makes some sense, right? We go into an organization and it could be, it could be anything.

It could be a hospital, it could be a big lawyer's office. 

[00:23:00] Finn: Could be epic.com, it could 

[00:23:02] Gabrielle Harris: be epic.com. It could be any. Organization that you can think of. You know Apple? 

[00:23:07] Finn: Yeah. 

[00:23:08] Gabrielle Harris: Yeah. Could be that. Or it could be like Telstra. Have you heard of Telstra? 

[00:23:13] Finn: Yeah. Tel over every ad. It's always the most weird ads with Telstra.

One of the ads was this baby kangaroo and this papa kangaroo. The guy was putting the baby kangaroo was putting the carrot on the um, snowman and it was like Telstra. I'm like, what's that got to do with Telstra? 

[00:23:28] Gabrielle Harris: So there are organizations. Could be any organization that you wanna think of. What we do is we go into those organizations and we have chats with hundreds of people in that company, and we say, what do you like about working here?

What don't you like? And then we help them to come up with ideas to make it better so that the company makes more money, the people are happier and they do more to improve society based on what that business is doing. How we solve that problem for that organization and with that organization depends on how creative we can be, and that's why I need your help because you three are some of the best creative thinkers that I've met in a long time.

So I'm gonna tell you the story about this one company and you are gonna gimme your ideas. Good news. The company is not Telstra. Yes. Yes. Alright. Interchange is being contacted by a healthcare company. They want the place to be better. They want people to be happier and they want it to be more efficient.

[00:24:28] Finn: They want to like level up like four times so they can, 

[00:24:31] Gabrielle Harris: they wanna level up. Think of it as a computer game. That's awesome. Okay. The first step. Was to run the review, which we did. Yeah. By speaking to lots of people, finding out what their problems are, and this is what we found out. Yeah. Okay. So people don't talk to each other, so each team, they just work by themselves.

They sort of, sometimes they speak to a couple of people within their teams, but they don't share ideas and they, they don't really take breaks. They don't hang out with each other. There aren't any new ideas that are coming through, so everyone's just doing things exactly the same way that they did them when this healthcare company started.

The way that they work is really messy. So some people have to do way too much work. Other people aren't doing enough work. They don't have good tools like computers and systems and calculators to do the job that they need to do really well. They find it a bit confusing and it's not a good vibe. So lots of people said the mood is not great here.

People seem bored, they seem frustrated in their work, so there's lots of problems. What do you do? 

[00:25:37] Chloe: I had an idea since they didn't socialize, like, why, if you don't socialize, you're not gonna get ideas, you are not gonna feel included. Um, they could like actually, well, in their work, they could actually have groups like, and then they all work together.

Like, so say there's one group making this pill for this rare disease or something, and then there's, they all have a role in it. 

[00:26:07] Finn: So we can make a business that's like a hard shell taco. You gotta be careful where we attack it from. 'cause otherwise all the things will fall out. Or they're like, workers are the, they're like fillings, fillings.

The employees of the fillings and they're like thing at the, um, tacos company. And basically if they like, if they keep biting it really quickly, if they keep doing it really quickly, it's gonna all fall apart. You know, so if they take it slowly, take a bite, I'm num. 

[00:26:40] Gabrielle Harris: So make sure there's enough like fun stuff that's around each bite so that they stay together in the taco.

[00:26:47] Julian: Yeah. 

If we think about it as Finn was saying, tacos, they're yummy, they're really good. But when we have too many tacos, all the tacos, they add up and create one big taco. Are you gonna get through that? No. You are gonna get through one big taco. No, you are gonna get through a few little tacos. 

[00:27:06] Finn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:07] Julian: So if you take your time. Eating your tacos. You are, you are gonna have more ideas to produce for the next few years. 

[00:27:19] Gabrielle Harris: So can I just understand that a bit more? Are you saying if you go with a little taco then you get more opportunity to experiment? So try something small and then taste it and see what works and then try the next thing.

[00:27:32] Julian: So like say if you build up, what happens if you build a massive taco? You put like a dozen tubs of. Sour cream on it, and then it, it is just cooked. And then you have to eat all of that at once. But then when you put little test samples on one taco, put one piece of little lettuce on one taco. That's just giving you more ideas and inspiration for the next project.

[00:28:00] Gabrielle Harris: Okay, love your taco ideas. And now here's the actual task that I'm gonna give you. You are gonna have five minutes to think between the three of you you can chat. So Kylie's now gonna tell you what you're gonna do in your five minutes. 

[00:28:13] Kylie Burns: So I think breaking it down into a minute each would be fantastic. So let's have a look at the first question.

A fun game to help people get to know each other. So brainstorm that for a minute, 

[00:28:25] Chloe: you know, alphabet around the world. Um, so you know how you have to say like a country that starts with. The letter is in the alphabet in order. Instead of saying countries, you could say the places you wanted to go or things you like.

[00:28:41] Finn: I like, uh, what do I like? Start with a say I started at t. Okay. I'll say I started at M. Okay. And you like go around. That's it. Time's up. What? What? 

[00:28:52] Kylie Burns: So we're now having a look at a creative challenge or task that shows the power of teamwork. 

[00:28:58] Finn: All right. Um, you know, the teamwork games, we did a grade four camp.

No. Um, at the very start. Oh, those, yes, I remember them now. I, so yeah, there was the kind of rope swing one. Yeah. And then there was the, like tunnel one, and there was the tunnel one. Maybe we would make them like a bit more, you know, like adult level. So just swing across a rope. You had to use every brain that you could get your hands on.

[00:29:26] Kylie Burns: You had to use every brain you could get your hands on. That's fantastic. Great. Yeah. And do you think that that brought you together? 

[00:29:33] Finn: Yeah. It took more than one idea. Okay. You ready for the next one? Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:37] Kylie Burns: Okay. The next one, a way to help people think about why their work matters. That's a big question, isn't it 

[00:29:46] Finn: encouraging 

[00:29:48] Chloe: if they put lots of time and effort in it?

You can't just say, no, it doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah. Because that's really rude. And to get people to know that their work does matter is you could encourage them in saying like, this is really good and positive feedback. 

[00:30:09] Finn: And you can also be like, say someone did something. Okay. Oh no. So there's the tiny bit of piece of paper they made.

Okay. So there's the big bit of piece of paper you made. Okay. You'd be like to them. Look what you did. You helped build this. And they'll be like, oh my God, yay. I built this. Hooray. Even if it takes a bit of, you know, like, I actually did that. But they can have the credit, 

[00:30:30] Gabrielle Harris: see where you're going? Bugs. 

[00:30:32] Julian: Um, a 1000 piece puzzle.

Everyone finds these little pieces, but then you are the quiet kid and then you build up all of these little faces here, and then everyone's like. Who did that, and then you say, oh, it's me. And then they were like, yay. So it sounds 

[00:30:55] Gabrielle Harris: like it's really building on Chloe's idea that where that where effort has been put in.

You need to notice people, no matter how loud they are. 

[00:31:03] Finn: Yeah. No matter what they did. You gotta also congratulate the people in the background. So like, you know, so like they thought of all the idea and they just wrote it down. 

[00:31:12] Kylie Burns: Okay, so we're now looking at a special theme or setting for the workshop.

Think about your past experiences, where you've had to work as a team, how you can make that creative. 

[00:31:25] Julian: So don't, don't make the time to go off. Pause it. Please say, man, friend, are playing games like usual. Yeah, I die in the game. Finn needs to kill the other person to win. I give him the good note that I had because I still have it.

I'm just crawling on the ground. Since he has it, he can actually use this stuff. To win. 

[00:31:51] Finn: Yeah, yeah. For the workshop, it's, um, you could cook with people, you know, you could all get together, all give ideas or put your own ingredients in and make a dish 

[00:32:01] Gabrielle Harris: that's genius wish dish, like a, like a cooking school type situation.

[00:32:05] Finn: And like, since it's not, like, since, like, you can't really, you know, you can't do like a, like a making making. 

[00:32:12] Gabrielle Harris: Chloe, what did you think? 

[00:32:13] Finn: Making origami cows workshop. 'cause you know, 

[00:32:17] Gabrielle Harris: making origami cows could work. 

[00:32:19] Kylie Burns: That's, I'm thinking that's fantastic. I'd wanna make an origami cow. 

[00:32:23] Chloe: Kind of like, since we wanna make it fun for them, they need to be somewhere where they can be challenged to get some ideas out and everything.

So maybe some like challenging, like a workshop that kind of gives you a jungle theme. So like, there's challenges related like. To what you might experience in a jungle. My mom does a lot of work trips, so maybe they could go on like a work trip to like the Amazon Rainforest or something and then actually try and experience it, but you don't want 'em to get hurt.

So with like safety resources. Great idea. Like what types? So it feels like they're camping yard in Amazon. 

[00:33:05] Gabrielle Harris: Mm. Could they just go camping? 

[00:33:07] Chloe: Yeah. They socialize more, they spend time together, they grow close and 

become good friends. 

[00:33:16] Gabrielle Harris: Bugs, what do you like about going camping? Do you think that could work as an activity?

[00:33:21] Julian: I would usually like be either see next to a fire or going for a walk, maybe on the beach or something. 

[00:33:30] Gabrielle Harris: Okay. So for your last two minutes, you are gonna do a presentation between the three of you. To Kylie and I and you are gonna pretend that you work for Interchange and that we are the healthcare company and you are coming to tell us your ideas about how to fix their company and said and pitch, please enter.

[00:34:00] Finn: Hello? Um. You guys, um, we heard you needed some help with getting your employees into gear. So we have used our brains and come together and thought of. Things to help you, like you kinda have when you have a break. You could just get to know your employees. Sitting, standing in a circle and we basically, we start and so I start and we go, I start from a, do you know alphabet around the world?

I started on a, okay. So I'd be like, it's gotta be things you like archery, then Julian, B. B 

[00:34:34] Julian: bananas, 

[00:34:35] Chloe: CI like cat. 

[00:34:37] Finn: Now D no, but I don't know anything else to starts with the. Well. Hmm. What can I do? I will ask the people in the circle. You guys know anything that I like the stars with. D do you like dogs? Yes, I do.

Yay. 

[00:34:54] Chloe: An activity for you guys to do. You could go on like a work trip to go camping. And since cooking also make brings people together so they can each do something. You could like cook your dinner as in some person could like mince the meat. Some person, someone could batter the fish, some person could cook, put everything in the oven.

Since we all like peaceful things as well in like something that makes you feel happy, like making origami cows, make some, some of us feel. Happy, just grab a piece of paper and start folding. Um, and some activities you could also do, there's one of them where there's a rope swing. There's, it's in the middle of the, um.

Of tan bark and there's a line, you have to stand at that line and then you have to, but you can't reach the rope. So you have, you have to work with your team and swing over to the other side. All your team members have to go to the other side. Alright, we'll be leaving.

[00:36:01] Gabrielle Harris: Excellent. You're all hired. Yay. 

[00:36:03] Julian: Yay. Hooray. 

[00:36:06] Gabrielle Harris: Julian, thank you so much 

[00:36:08] Julian: slash 

buggy 

[00:36:09] Gabrielle Harris: Julian slash buggy. Thank you so much for coming in today and having a chat to us. Really appreciated listening to all of your creative ideas. 

[00:36:17] Julian: Oh, thank you. We enjoyed us Day 

[00:36:20] Gabrielle Harris: and Chloe, some really fabulous thoughts and ideas from you based on all of your different experiences, but also your incredible creative thought.

Thank you for coming in. 

[00:36:31] Chloe: Thanks. It's been a wonderful pleasure being here. 

[00:36:36] Gabrielle Harris: And Finn, Mr. Finn. Finn, how did you go today? 

[00:36:41] Finn: Uh, good. Good. That was fun. It was fun. First time on a podcast. Mm-hmm. Definitely not the last time. 

[00:36:46] Gabrielle Harris: Definitely not the last time. I imagine this will be an ongoing theme for you. Yeah. And thank you Kylie.

Thanks for having me. Oh, you're very welcome Finn. And thank you to Kylie. Say thanks to Kylie guys. 

[00:36:57] Kylie Burns: Thanks Kylie. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to you as well. Absolutely fantastic. You guys are jazz, creatively. Brilliant. 

[00:37:05] Gabrielle Harris: Well, that was an awful lot of fun and sometimes quite humbling when you realize that 10 year olds can come up with better ideas than you.

So let's unpack that, uh, little micro experiment that we just did around getting them to tap into their innate creativity so that we can understand, I guess, the way that a, a 10 year old's mind works in solving what boards and executive teams can't solve. Tell me, what did you take from that? 

[00:37:33] Kylie Burns: Oh, so much.

It's fantastic. I love that they designed an icebreaker that was just brilliant. Also, the importance of positive feedback, so the language that we use as well in that feedback's really, really important. 

[00:37:49] Gabrielle Harris: Yeah, I really enjoyed the way that Chloe connected effort. To acknowledgement and positive feedback.

Yeah. Carol would like her. 

[00:37:57] Kylie Burns: Yeah, absolutely. And persistence that came up as well, I think. Um, it was Finn that was talking about, uh, the tarko filling. I think the, the workers were diverse. The grand beef, the salad, the cheese, they were so diverse within the company, which was the taco shell. And I thought that that.

That was brilliant. 

[00:38:23] Gabrielle Harris: Yeah. I, the wisdom and the power of metaphors that children can tap into that connects to their own reality and experience is, uh, it's really powerful. Yeah. And how did it relate back to your work on the design mindset process? 

[00:38:40] Kylie Burns: Well, the positive feedback is really, really important. Um, so the language that I use in the classroom and if I'm speaking to a designer about their work and I say your work and then give them, um, criticism feedback, your is a direct attack.

If I change the your, to the. The work, I've taken all the emotional context out of it so that person then can receive the, the, um, feedback without being emotionally connected. So that language is really, really important. That feedback language and how we deliver it, the reflect and refine. And inspire. So the testing of, of staff design is very iterative, and I think that that's something that the kids have innately.

They just, even in their play and how they do things in the playground, they'll persist and keep going forward. 

[00:39:41] Gabrielle Harris: Mm. One of the things I, I connected to your model on reflection was the moment that Julian said, can we stop the clock? Uh, I need to think. Yeah. And it's really hard in a business setting to stop the clock.

It's just this constant churn Yeah. And pace that you either have to keep up or you're left behind and well, at least that's the perception and it's very difficult to find the words of. Can you stop the clock just for a minute? Let me think. Yeah. Losing that sense of reflection, losing the, the capacity to ask for time and space for our minds to keep up with every part of those creative neurons that are firing is, it's underrated.

Uh, and I wonder how much we, we miss by connecting so strongly to this sense of busyness. And churn and pace. 

[00:40:42] Kylie Burns: Yeah. Where's the innovative quality? 

[00:40:45] Gabrielle Harris: So Kylie, connecting back to the work that Interchange does, which is about using creativity to drive change with all of your research and experience, what would you recommend as being one small change that organizations could adopt that would allow them to start sparking more creativity in their workforce?

[00:41:07] Kylie Burns: Reflexivity is huge. You need to really reflect on what's happening, why it's happening. If it's, you know, something that's negative that needs to be fixed. What one of the things that Chloe also brought up and she was speaking, was about that social connection and that need, um, to feel a part of, to then make those change.

Listening to ideas, being open, um, you know, and then going back to the creative problem solving process, finding the facts, ideating those findings. And creating those solutions, but be okay with those solutions not working and then iterating them so that they do work. It's a process. Things are always changing.

There's a constant evolution. 

[00:41:59] Gabrielle Harris: Mm. 

[00:41:59] Kylie Burns: Um, I don't think there's one right way, but I think reflexivity is one of the key components. And curiosity.

[00:42:07] Gabrielle Harris: When I'm running, uh, executive sessions, one of the techniques that I use is. To let them know that we're going to be spending the next half an hour in reflection.

And what that means is that you can share anything with the group, but it's not a conversation. You are just putting it down on the table and letting it sit. Yeah. And creating the space for the next person to say what's on their mind and what it is that they're reflecting on. And it is such an awkward moment when you start doing it with a team for the first time.

They don't know how to be, they don't know how to respond, and we're so trained to converse rather than just to share and to listen. Mm. And that reflective space is so valuable once they start forming habits around a practice like that, the information that they then gain from hearing each other's reflections.

Sparks ideas that extend beyond any of their ideas that they've done before because they're really starting to listen. 

[00:43:15] Kylie Burns: Yeah. Uh, you need to feel safe to express yourself because there is a fear component of what if I say something that comes across as stupid, or maybe they'll look at me differently if I actually speak from the heart type thing.

Safety is incredibly important and it needs, you need to. Be safe, feel safe to then express ideas. 

[00:43:42] Gabrielle Harris: Join me in your summary. But what I took out of today was that piece you were sharing of every single person is full of creativity. It's just how that's expressed. Exactly. Uh, and I really liked the, the piece that has resonated for both of us with probably our, our neurodivergent brains is.

How could learning be approached in a much more tactile and um, I guess utilizing full body experience to be able to get things to be more sticky? Yep. Yeah. How about for you? 

[00:44:17] Kylie Burns: Yeah, exactly the same. I think too, just having the children in and seeing their creative minds firing in seconds was incredibly.

Valuable and the, the no fear to put things forward, to just jump in and have a crack. 

[00:44:39] Gabrielle Harris: Those of you that are listening and not able to see the, the body language in the way that the children were engaging as they were put through their paces from a creative challenge perspective. They were on their feet.

They were up wanting to present, they're wanting to build on each other's ideas at times and talk over each other at other times. Just that excitement of shit, you know what, listen to my idea. I've got the great idea. Yeah. Um, it's really lovely to see and it's, it's wonderful when you start to get a sense of, of that coming to life in workplaces as well.

So, uh, my main takeaway from all of this is. It reinforces to me that creativity is a competitive edge in all organizational contexts, and the more that you can see it as a value add, the greater advancements that any organization's going to be able to make. So I wanna say thank you, Kylie. Thank you so much for joining me.

[00:45:31] Kylie Burns: Thank you. Uh, 

[00:45:32] Gabrielle Harris: and thank you to Chloe, Julian, and Finn for coming and giving us their energy, insights, and creativity. 

[00:45:39] Kylie Burns: Thank you so much. 

[00:45:41] Gabrielle Harris: Thanks. Until next time, thanks for joining us on Best Behavior. 

[00:45:47] Sophie: Thanks for listening to this episode of Best Behaviour. If you'd like the interchange team to brainstorm a solution to your workplace woes, or you just want to ask a question or leave a comment, please get in touch by our socials or email podcast@interchange.com au.

Best Behaviour is recorded at our interchange offices on Wurundjeri land Interchange acknowledges that. This land was and always will be Aboriginal land.