Best Behaviour

Dr Sean Gallagher: The Future of Human Work

• Season 1 • Episode 6

Share episode

Dr Sean Gallagher is the director of Swinburne University’s Centre for the New Workforce, Chief Investigator at the Australian Cobotics Centre, has a PhD in Chemistry, and is a member of the Future of Work advisory panel - In the latest episode of Best Behaviour, Gabe and Nick sat down with Sean to talk about the possible impact of AI on the workforce, Hybrid working, and the need to be nimble and experimental as we forge a new way of working into the future.

You can read more about Swinburne's Centre for the New Workforce here: https://www.swinburne.edu.au/research/centres-groups-clinics/centre-for-the-new-workforce/our-research/


Send us a message.

Best Behaviour podcast is recorded on Wurundjeri land, Interchange acknowledges that this always was, and always will be Aboriginal land.

For more information about Interchange and the work that we do, check out our website, or connect with us on LinkedIn, or instagram.

Gabrielle Harris:

Well hello and welcome back to best behaviour, a Podcast where we explore all with Dr. Sean Gallagher, who is the director at the Centre for the new workforce. I'm joined today recently been accredited as an Organisational Psychologist has been working in this space for Sean and I for a chat. I hope you are too. So sit back, enjoy the right.

Nick Brandon-Jones:

Shawn, so you're the director of the Centre for the new workforce chief you're a member of the Future of Work advisory panel, and you have a PhD in chemistry, I do owe a

Sean Gallagher:

there's probably a lot on that list that haven't been included. I've got a bit of and in many ways, but yeah, and it's interesting how you end up in a place in your career that you there seems to be some sort of thread that connects it all together. And I suppose I've things that I you know, my life experience, which was, I suppose, very formative for me was I grew know, in Australia and Canada, which you might hear a bit of a twang from time to time,

Gabrielle Harris:

what was that shone on my dad was a swimming coach, not your run of the mill

Sean Gallagher:

He was he was Australia's Olympic swimming coach in the 50s and 60s, he coached on Canadian teams to go and help out there throughout the 70s. And so we just moved around a lot. And me it was recognising seeing the world through different lenses all the time and recognising isn't just one way to do things that you can sort of see, there are different approaches, and I growing up. And so if I look at in terms of my career, you know, recognising that some things particular role as then actually has resonance in impact in others. And so that's kind of a bit of a terms of how I've ended up where I'm at. But all through that, you know, it's been about people, or through my work in the public service, and politics. And now, most recently, you know, back succeed. And that's kind of what has really drawn me to where I am at the moment, the future of

Gabrielle Harris:

So Shawn, your interest in people? What are the parallels there with, or I as they can be? Does that then go back to your dad being a swimming coach, and really investing in

Sean Gallagher:

Yeah, my father had many, you know, pretty impressive capabilities and coach. But one of the things that he was able to do was, you know, he was always connecting he was one of the first, I suppose of any sport to introduced psychology, and into, you know, connections and, and he used that to identify the talent and people, he was incredibly good at were able to, and I think a lot of that, you know, has been passed on to me, and I'm pretty good at opportunities for people, which is very much what my dad did as well.

Nick Brandon-Jones:

Opportunities you say now, in the people you work with, or the work that you do, environments and situations that you see arising that people should take advantage of? Well, it

Sean Gallagher:

to you know, it's hard to identify any particular opportunities, but it comes down to world and ask yourself questions that It's questions that you wouldn't, you know, aren't explore, and sometimes, you know, I often think that we have, the people should have two frames of when they're in the job and doing what that's required. The other is to lift themselves above a helicopter looking down on themselves, and to recognise how their role or their job or the work that, from that, you know, higher view, recognise, there might be patterns or connections that curiosity in that kind of way. This, you know, I think, connecting, you know, often and, you know, have these capabilities in the sense that when we're doing something, we're we get stumped, you about something seems to be quite disparate, but most of us sort of ignore that. That's where I And what's the connection to what I'm currently doing? And to not be afraid to, you know, to well, actually, what would happen if I bring these two people together or connect these different people that they they make these connections in their head, but they don't necessarily follow

Gabrielle Harris:

absolutely see that often. Shawn, taking it from a micro level level of human is a space that you're facing into now, and I'm super curious about what it is that you're seeing work.

Sean Gallagher:

It's a, you know, Crystal balling is not everyone wants a crystal ball at the know, gave this is a really critical question, in many ways, because we're at a very, you know, I everything seems to be unprecedented. And, you know, it started dated word. But, but at some, you important to recognise that things are a little bit crazy. And, you know, started back in the been changing before then in terms of, you know, digital transformation. And that probably was an things, but then it went up a level with COVID. And now with generative AI over the last six So in terms of the future of work, and where we're going, it really, and, you know, the work that years, it's been focusing on what's the future of human work? And that's really, probably the the we're going is more human work. And, you know, that's, what do I what I mean by that? Well, if over the last, while at the same time as how we have, in our organisations, how we structure work, our work is, you know, we break it down into tasks that are repeatable, they're able to be into, you organisation, they can be scalable for efficiency, all of that, well, that's a perfect environment basically take over or, you know, they're exposed to that kind of thing. And, you know, this has while we lift the humans, you give them a bit more skills to do higher level work and so forth. And, right? Humans are more than skill. So we're more than capable of just doing tasks and being, you many ways, we've never really embraced the human and the people we employ. We sort of just value with these new technologies that is able to do really impressive cognitive work. It's, we're at you know, skill up workers to the next level for them to, again be competing with a technology that elevate them to what I call human work. And, you know, it goes, it's, it's not rocket science in be pretty crappy at doing it, you know, creativity and innovation and celebrating curiosity and know, that's what humans are incredibly good at. But we're also great at doing this navigating and how do we use our jobs as sort of a platform like, a window onto the future. And that's where I the the future of human work is going to be. Because, you know, not just, Well, not that They're the it's, they're eating into what was traditionally human work. And so the preserve of diminishing. But at the same time, you know, if I put it on a positive spin, those capabilities are organisation, you're figuring out the future that creativity and innovation and ability to work how organisations create value. And that's, I think, where we're heading for the future of human

Nick Brandon-Jones:

Exciting, is exciting and terrifying, terrifying.

Gabrielle Harris:

There's a lot of terror around it. I'm curious about your thoughts on that, that Congress only a couple of weeks ago asking for to be regulated, and that this has potential to do how its programmed and what it's used for. Curious from a generative AI perspective, your thoughts on

Sean Gallagher:

I have a nine year old daughter. And, you know, my husband and I were travelling, the two of us and, and we stopped the car on the road at a winery and I said, sit down, we need to trouble I said, about the future for our daughter and these technologies and what that means, and be you know, less fraught, in terms of, you know, having to, you know, to, to leverage these new in a way, you know, if she, if she said to us, I want to be a lawyer there, or maybe, maybe not know, and that's fundamental to what we're really talking about here. These new technologies are already creating a lot of fear and anxiety, I suspect, but one of the things that's interesting already coming out, you know, a number of universities in the US have done some, you know, know, seeing how generative AI tools being used in the real world, workplace. Those workers who use they produce more output, it's much higher quality, but they also have much higher levels of less threatened by the tools. So that's really I think, where we need to navigate is to empower what you know, then, but it also does a number of things, not only is allow the worker to do the job many positive things for the worker, but it also it diminishes these tools from being you know, I be anthropomorphize, right in the sense that they talk to you they're very confident they're sort of hard to sometimes remember that they're actually a tool. So using these tools in work, actually then that they're still a tool.

Nick Brandon-Jones:

I guess, you know, there's so many different ways we can take this conversation. Oh, you know, when you through the centre or other worker advisory positions, what are you telling to prepare them and to optimise their people? I hate saying that optimise people, it's what you've What sort of conversations you're having with organisations to prepare them for this? We're

Sean Gallagher:

albeit hybrid or the, the new world of generative AI? The The answer is still organisations, they want to know, particularly in hybrid, right, there are, many organisations want right. And the best case for hybrid is test and learn, you know, the futures, you know, we didn't months ago, it was going to be here, and now look where we're at, and who knows where there was know, set up experiments within, you know, turn your organisation into an experimental outfit, going to approach hybrid for the next three or six months or whatever, you know, when you come into know, type of activities that you should only do in the office versus remote, etc. And to test it co create the experiment, and see what works, what didn't, and keep what was a success, refine it, to be a generative AI, start experimenting with it now see how it can benefit your business, see how but also set up the guardrails around it and are for ethics and IP and all of that. We just need to know, there's, I was, I was at a conference yesterday, and someone said, Ah, you know, we just is, you know, so that we know where we're going to be for the the next, you know, the direction we're understand the sentiment behind it, but there's no way that that organisation or any organisation is end up in five years time. Sure, you need a Northstar. You need a vision, and you know, which ways, you need to be agile and adaptive to the opportunities and threats that come along. And so think, is the best way to ensure that you have that agility, but you're also learning on the way.

Gabrielle Harris:

I think everyone's looking for the one stop Shop answer to things like hybrid that. I know within our own organisation, we've done a bit of experimenting around what's going to we've seen this real trend happening in the Australian landscape around a four day working the broader workforce. I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

Sean Gallagher:

In some respects, the the four day workweek is it's I'd almost put it in the same flexible working is not an end in itself. It's a means to an end. And the end workers want better And that's exactly the same for the four day work week in itself isn't something that they want. and better wellbeing. And so you can understand why there's a bit of I suppose, a rising and where but certainly there's greater discussion around four day work weeks and that has worked for two things. I don't think it's going to be you know, taken the, you know, all organisations are might work for some organisations, you know, maybe smaller agencies or companies that are able to Um, you know, done in, you know, moved around and repackaged in four days or whatever it is, and you if a worker wants better wellbeing, and work life balance, what are some of the other things that number of meetings that people have in their calendars, even these generative AI tools might of things that you can do to help drive better wellbeing outcomes, you know, you don't have to aren't stressed out the whole time because of meeting times, etc. So there are a number of second thing to say is that I, you know, I'm, I don't mean to be, you know, understand that the really like, and that's, I understand that. But the whole, we're certainly not going to move in to me, it has asked me ask the question, what's the meaning of work? Is it just to be, you know, the time for innovation and creativity, or social connections with colleagues, and, you know, all of workweek, you know, in many ways, you have to carve out all of that, in order to do your 100% period of time. And I don't think that's the future of work.

Gabrielle Harris:

I'm also curious about the, your thoughts on the commercial model around it. So well being, I'd like to be working three days a week, but I'd still like to be paid for a five day collaborate together. Otherwise, we're a whole lot of individual contributors going about tasks. And organisation can afford for that talent and how we make best use of that talent. And what that then pendulum is, well, actually, I should just be allowed to manage my own work within my own time. be it, but I want to get paid for five.

Sean Gallagher:

In some respects, I think we need to reframe it, though, in both of the examples work as a productive activity, right. And, you know, if I can be more productive, you know, then hours it takes, right. And there's a solid argument around that. But what happens when we outputs, we start to focus on outcomes. And that could be an argument for, you know, working less it would be collaborative work is a much higher value creation for the business than producing 100 do that in less time. And I think that is equally a valid argument. In some respects, we've kind of to measure time. I mean, even saying a three day work week or a four day work week, we're still but if you want to talk about outputs or outcomes, then we just need to maybe not frame it in a around it. But the thing that I find, you know, a little bit of a concern is that we haven't, you trust factor, right? And that, we still think that many still think that they need to know how many a certain, you know, output is all a bunch of things sort of rolled up into into that trust and just let workers do whatever they however, they work provided. And it's not just that accountable for that out Come, that they own the outcomes or the impact of their work and empower for those outcomes. Once you switch to that kind of context, then time sort of dissipates, it of what you know how many hours we might do in a particular week,

Nick Brandon-Jones:

really love that, Shawn, you've somehow turned a time into something that's And really, what I heard you say then is it's around leadership. How you know, that change in hybrid remote working, as you said, we're not seeing people in front of you, your eyes every that those outcomes output focused, there's new types of leadership skills that some probably really love Have you have you gone full circle with that? And are there do leadership something

Sean Gallagher:

Yeah, we've, I've just finished delivering a series of workshops to large hybrid and helping them become more effective leaders. And one of the key things is changing the leader, and, you know, coaching and facilitating and supporting and all those capabilities that a managers haven't traditionally had, you know, McKinsey just put out a report on the 10, big year. And, and the second one is still hybrid is still, you know, a major challenge. And within managers are having difficulty working in virtual and hybrid environments, when they're not seeing what they're doing. You know, that's very old school, and we need to, you know, having people in overseen in terms of the work that they're doing. Trust is critical leadership is fundamental to much, you know, to be able to empower their teams. And you know, that a leader success, you know, successful. But now, it's the other way around. You know, my success comes through making my team

Nick Brandon-Jones:

successful. Tap into that potential that you have. Yeah, very much so

Gabrielle Harris:

This is a area that you're very passionate about thinking about leadership and how

Nick Brandon-Jones:

Yeah, no, definitely. Yes, going up, play a lot of sport and still playing leadership on field off field and building trust. But now I see it now. From what you're saying, like there's probably more of a impetus for people to be more siloed. Because you're not teams keep you know, at home, you're not getting that cross cultural collaboration, that you may do what when leadership, and to become a people manager, it's actually about leaders supporting each other. I doing really well. And there might be some competition between leaders and between teams. But Because you need to leverage each other and without those conversations without learning from navigate the uncertainty in the new environments of that a remote and flexible workforce presents? we do, it seems organisations seem to be going more siloed. So I really love that you're doing management and your How do you find the potential and you get the most out of your people to take leader is directing them to be. But to get that I think leaders need more development themselves and really clear with each other and where they want to go as an organisation. what you stand for,

Sean Gallagher:

I think community of practice is essential for leadership, you know, particularly organisations, you know, having done, you know, their approach to hybrid, while understandable, sense that they've read They just left figuring out hybrid to leaders in their teams. And what's inconsistency. Some leaders take it very seriously working with the teams to figure out what's the team and how it works for the team overall, other leaders will just say, Whatever you do whatever organisations, and that inequity is causing, you know, big cultural issues and organisations have, thrown around the leaders and their teams to figure out really complex logistical challenges, needs to be at the table, because there are some, you know, broader organisational needs that are have been put in, in an invidious situation to try to figure out hybrid. And then, and, you know, and thrown to them individuals, that's caused a lot of problems in organisations. And as you were saying, that, you know, that community of practice, so that sheds almost teamwork amongst leaders to try

Gabrielle Harris:

Sure, you were talking earlier about all of these big changes and shifts in the fascinating is organisational culture. And I'm curious about what musings that you and your team shifts that we're likely to see in culture to support the future of work,

Sean Gallagher:

I went to a conference yesterday, digital workplace Summit, and one of the first sort of chatted amongst themselves about the key factors and challenges facing organisations in the well, I have to say 75% of the tables in the room, their, their responses and feedback was about of belonging, it was about trust, it was, you know, ability to collaborate effectively, you think it's a bit of a, I wouldn't say a ticking time bomb, but culture has been seriously damaged, damaged by organisations. Just, you know, allowing workers expectations to be sort of the most working rather than trying to balance it with organisational needs. And I understand that in market for a while now. And that and also the nature of remote working means that I might live in Melbourne or Brisbane and not actually have to move there. Right. So the competition for talent it back. And I don't mean that. I'm not in many ways, diminishing the importance of flexible organisational need. And one of that needs is, is culture, right? We need to rebuild culture, we time to time, we need to connect them as humans with one another. And we need to do work that is the space. You know, I've often said that the workplace is the anchor of culture for the opinion, to allowing workers that you know, to pursue their expectations around flexible working, equilibrium between worker and organisation, particularly around culture, I

Nick Brandon-Jones:

see you nodding their game.

Gabrielle Harris:

I could not agree more. There's often something that is shared with us when we're fantastic. We don't need to do anything about our culture. We've got it nailed. And I've got a culture needs to evolve as your work evolves, your culture needs to evolve as your strategic hear your thoughts on, can you have a culture that's, that's great, and just will naturally and require constant attention and work?

Sean Gallagher:

I think those two aren't mutually exclusive. I also thought that if you have a and, you know, evolving, and so forth. And what's fundamental to any culture is, you know, a sense know, meaningful and deep connections between people in the organisation, but that also imbue what it stands for, right? I think that that's, you know, very fundamental to culture. And when safety, when you have that deep understanding for one another, then you can go into as the world around six months ago, but it's fundamentally going to disrupt every workplace across the tool, but these new technologies, right? And that's going to impact culture everywhere. And if you know, Psych, safety and sense of belonging, and then you're hearing a bit pretty bad place to

Gabrielle Harris:

Have you experienced that in a workplace what you've just described? And can you

Sean Gallagher:

It's a bit hard to talk without necessarily conveying giving away things, but I think one of the things is that we talk more broadly about mandates, right, you know, and mandates work, I don't think that that is a very culturally healthy way to respond to a workforce the office six days a week, you know, we're talking about a workforce here, that's for a going to wake up and have a job, they didn't know if they're going to wake up, and someone was going that. And, and, you know, because of the circumstance, we found ourselves, and we had to manner isolated from everyone. And, you know, and our lives have significantly changed to that. really important, mandating or return is not the way to go. And I don't think respects the culture been through, right. People have, there's a lot of support for one another, there's a lot of caring, everyone was a difficult position, you know, we've been very open about sharing and connecting and, are okay. And then just a mandate, I think, flies in the face of all of that,

Nick Brandon-Jones:

we're going to take the learnings and the good things that came out of can undo a lot of good work. It's like trust, it takes a long time to build but quite quickly lost. time, who think they did, they did, they did the right thing and kept themselves so as to keep the in, you can lose that trust that you've tried to build as an organisation, which is essentially how do you build a trust between people that work together,

Sean Gallagher:

particularly when people are fragile? It's not, we're not coming from a particularly thrown on top of things with the cost of living now and, you know, all of the stresses important to understand be empathy, you know, show some empathy, understand where people are at and, situation might be having everyone back in the office three days a week. So engage in a members and say, right, how do we get here?

Nick Brandon-Jones:

Sounds simple. Sounds simple. I think conversations and solve a lot of issues

Gabrielle Harris:

In one of your many roles. You are quite a low achiever can see by your CV You're centre and the future of Cobots working, I'm wondering about how, within that space, you've understanding what humans have to bring into the world in perhaps a new way in a way that we this other space that's going on. And I'm wondering how you kind of reconcile or work within safety of humans as you continue to evolve in that space.

Sean Gallagher:

First of all, I'm not the chief investigator, I'm a chief investigator, there are thing that I've got so many very talented colleagues in the space, but that, you know, the robots working alongside humans in our workspace, I mean, if you've ever seen, you know, footage of anywhere near them. This is about how to, literally physically proximate of robots working robots increasingly as tools to help them solve more challenging problems and so forth. But we're workforce. So the, you know, think in other words, think, part of the future of advanced sure that there's the capability in this the the capacity in the workforce to meet the needs of the ensure that, you know, we get as we get more and more, you know, women and, and younger people is really important. But in terms of the, you know, the the role of humans in these jobs is you know, complex problems, requires, you know, most of our human capabilities to do that. And, more sophisticated problems, the more sophisticated the technology that you're using

Gabrielle Harris:

it's a pretty fascinating space. What a great place to play here. So what's next

Sean Gallagher:

Well, you know, I don't know. Well, I didn't know where I didn't know, I'd end would my next job be? And I couldn't have told you that I'd be here now. And I've been here for six step is, it's not quite clear, what I probably would say is that my next role doesn't yet exist. say for the last, you know, 2525 years, none of the roles that I went into existed before I got to continue on this path of the future of human work. I do think we undervalue the human in the its we're now we're entering the age of AI. There's going to be a lot of displacement, a lot needs to be a voice and then a proponent of ensuring that we move our workers to doing that

Gabrielle Harris:

fascinating place to play, and a really exciting consideration of what's the role the robot so loved it. Thank you.

Nick Brandon-Jones:

You really do practice what you preach Shawn, you know, you always hear at obsolete in two or three years, but you've literally lived your last 25 years in career at for yourself. Making sure people are at the centre. I think it's really admirable and I'm

Gabrielle Harris:

continue to follow along. Hey, Shawn, I get asked this question when I'm asked to very female orientated question that's always thrown at me. It's a bugbear. So I will now ask it quite intense career where you've achieved some incredible milestones. So how have you reconciled you've moved through that journey,

Sean Gallagher:

we're very blessed in that we have, you know, my husband and I, we absolutely responsibilities, right? He's got a, he's a superstar in his own right in his career, he's got constantly talk about how that you know, you know, support one another's careers, but how they also while at the same time is being a parent, right? That's really so constant. You know, we we want our own careers but also as a family and that just requires constant conversation and everything from policy that when one of us is one of us should always be in the same city as our daughter. failed own is in Montreal and I'm in Melbourne and our daughters in Sydney with their grandparents But it's really about having you know, no one's career is more important than anyone elses No how to you so but everyone's but everyone's career and life is important. So how do you make you know

Gabrielle Harris:

Last question for you. Yes. What is your favourite consumable drink consumable

Sean Gallagher:

This is I would have to be probably Chardonnay.

Gabrielle Harris:

Which one? Well,

Sean Gallagher:

I do like higher altitude cooler climates. So based on that, I certainly like a lot New Zealand. Also here in Victoria, a lot of great Chardonnays and as well as in North America, like

Gabrielle Harris:

northern California and Chardonnay, yeah. Lovely. Have you been on the

Sean Gallagher:

No, I haven't been on the trail. But we were that we were driving around some spectacular. Always after every time we go to New Zealand, I keep kicking myself saying, why don't amazing. And it's just two hours away or whatever.

Gabrielle Harris:

Well, there's my recommendation for the day. The family trip on the Otago trail Dunedin. Oh, wow. That's a long trip. It's a bit of a hike. But it is beautiful multi day.

Sean Gallagher:

needs your luggage for you. Right now our nine year olds go on that

Gabrielle Harris:

my nine year old went well. Did he go? Well, I had my seven year old did better did try to throw himself off a mountain declaring that someone's going to die on this trip. As it and it was a nice spot to go. Otherwise

Sean Gallagher:

I've already bought my tickets.

Gabrielle Harris:

Thank you, Shawn. Thank you for being with us today and sharing all of your you and track your career and where you go to next.

Sean Gallagher:

Alright, thanks so much appreciate the opportunity.

Gabrielle Harris:

That's all for this episode of Best behaviour powered by interchange. If you've share with us, you can message at interchange underscore CO on all social platforms or email about interchange in the work we do, check out the show notes for links on our website and social back soon with another episode. Until then, be good Stay curious.